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@Rob100 @neptune22222
That's essentially what I am doing with my many posts and reposts by others about unions and working-class solidarity. Those two things are what will bring society closer to the abolition of capitalism.
Unions and working-class solidarity are ways of working within capitalism to regulate capitalism. It's not an escape from capitalism.
@neptune22222 @Rob100
Did you not read my previous post to you? Unions and working-class solidarity destroy the isolation that capitalism's division of labor creates making it easier for workers to unite into a strong enough force to abolish capitalism. I never claimed that unions or solidarity alone would abolish capitalism.
@Radical_EgoCom @neptune22222 @Rob100@sakurajima.moe
If only it were that easy!
@starran @neptune22222 @Rob100
It's not going to be easy. It will probably be the hardest thing Humanity will ever try to do, but it is possible.
@Radical_EgoCom @starran @Rob100
I don't see the problem of developing a utopia as hard or easy. I see it as unrealistic.
@neptune22222 @starran @Rob100
I have already explained why what I've proposed isn't utopian. What do you find so unrealistic about it?
@Radical_EgoCom @starran @Rob100
I see no historical precedent for a gift economy that does not include money, or ownership, i.e. capital. That's why I cannot imagine what you are talking about and I continue to refer to it as utopian.
Chomsky argues that abolishing money is a technical distraction. The important thing is democratically regulating tyranny.
@neptune22222 @starran @Rob100
You not having seen a historical precedent for a moneyless gift economy with no private ownership of the means of production isn't proof that it's impossible. Can you list any reasons why such a system couldn't work?
@Radical_EgoCom @starran @Rob100
There are 8 billion people on Earth and I'm unclear why you don't like money as a way for people to exchange goods. Money seems pretty useful to me.
I see that you don't have a clear plan for accomplishing what sounds like an unclear goal.
@neptune22222 @starran @Rob100
I don't see what the number of people on Earth has to do with anything, I don't like money because of how it divides people into classes of wealthy and unwealthy, and you still haven't answered my question. Can you list any reasons why the system I proposed couldn't work?
@Radical_EgoCom @starran @Rob100
I don't think you've proposed a system.
I mention 8 billion people because that's the complexity of the problem to solve.
@neptune22222 @starran @Rob100
Regardless of what you think, I have proposed a system multiple times now, that is a decentralized and non-hierarchical system of collective ownership and management of the means of production and resources. What is impossible about that?
@Radical_EgoCom @starran @Rob100
I don't think that paragraph will be enough to manage the complexity of the problem. We have an existing system that does have a lot of value, and I think a system that includes money could also be what you describe because what you describe is so vague and abstract.
@neptune22222 @starran @Rob100
I didn't propose a specific system with all of the details and intricacies figured out, I proposed a possible alternative to the existing system. What exactly is it about a decentralized and non-hierarchical system of collective ownership of the means of production that you think makes it less possible than the current private ownership of the means of production within a hierarchical and centralized system?
@Radical_EgoCom @starran @Rob100
It's not clear what you mean by "decentralized". What is decentralized?
It is not clear what you mean by "non-hierarchical". What is non-hierarchical?
What is wrong with hierarchy? Even the most anarchistic systems include hierarchies that are elected democratically.
You are talking about "ownership" but you don't like money or capital so it's not clear what you mean by ownership.
It is really not clear what you are talking about.
@neptune22222 @starran @Rob100
I've been more than clear with what I've been talking about and it's not my fault that you're having difficulty understanding what the words I've used mean. You're on the internet. If you don't know what "decentralized", "non-hierarchical", or "ownership" means then you can look them up. Once you've done that then you can answer my question that I've asked twice already.
@Radical_EgoCom @neptune22222 @starran @Rob100 Dear old Karl said very little about this imaginary regulated capitalism earlier in this thread.
Workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains.
From each according to his ability, to each according to their needs.
Philosophers have only interpreted the world, the point, however is to change it.
1/
@Radical_EgoCom @neptune22222 @starran @Rob100
In volume 1 he says capitalist society had to force capitalists in general to stop killing the working class before it could reproduce itself. Cites places where average mortality was 17.
The only freedom capitalist relations grant is be exploiter or exploited.
Utopian comes from Engels’ book “Socialism, Utopian and Scientific”. The worker class must be in charge or any gains can
2/
@Radical_EgoCom @neptune22222 @starran @Rob100
be taken away, as we’ve had for 50 years of individualist neoliberalism.
Things are in a constant state of change, and the only way to fix it permanently is to take the capitalists’ toys away.
The Green Plenty stuff on my profile talks about this in more detail than I can fit here, fwiw.
/fin
@francis @Radical_EgoCom @starran @Rob100
Thank you Francis, this is really helpful. How do we "take the capitalists toys away"? That's where I see regulation, e.g. making laws to take capital away from the capitalists and give it to workers, i.e. force selling corporations to workers and converting to worker-owned coops, as the answer, but are you proposing another method that is not legislation, which I see as regulation?
@neptune22222 @Radical_EgoCom @starran @Rob100
I'm not gonna ignore this question, it's really interesting and useful to talk about. I will write an article to explain my position if you don't mind. This might take me a little while.
You're right, but there's a whole pile of things we need to think about that go with it.
@neptune22222 @Radical_EgoCom @starran @Rob100
I hope this helps, it's my view. https://www.greenplenty.info/take-their-toys-away/
@francis @Radical_EgoCom @starran @Rob100
OK. This quote from your article answers my question:
"What happens when we try and take the toddler's toys away? We will have a real fight on our hands, and it may well be bloody."